Nazir Afzal, the Chief Prosecutor of the Crown Prosecution Service for North West England, was interviewed by to Daily Sabah about multiculturalism in Britain, ISIS and Islamophobia.Meryem Atlas: Where is multiculturalism in today's world, especially in cosmopolitan societies like the U.K.? How do you see the future of multiculturalism in terms of creating a lawful society? Is it a solution, an end or something to promote?Nazir Afzal: Whenever anyone talks about multiculturalism, I prefer to talk about contribution. It is very distinct. For example, 10 percent of London is Muslim, but there are Ahmedi Muslims, Shiite Muslims and Sunni Muslims – we are diverse communities. So you cannot just simply say "the Muslim community" because we are so many different communities. Also, if you go to London, you see that there is an Indian shop next to a Pakistani shop next to a Polish shop. But when they go home, they lock the door and stay Indian, Pakistani and Polish. They do not necessarily want to mix outside of work and in the north of England, even less. There are Pakistani people living in Bradford or part of Manchester and Polish people live here. People don't really mix in the way people suggest they do. I do not think it matters. What matters is the contribution you make to British society. When people say to me, "How is it to be a British Muslim?" I say to them I do not love my first child any less because of the second one. I love them both. You can have love for "Britishness" and love for Islam. It does not cause tension for me. That's the view I take of anybody who is living in England. Muslims in England make a contribution of about $30 billion a year to the gross domestic product of the British economy. They build businesses, teach in schools and run hospitals. They are all over the place. I think when you start to talk about multiculturalism they are actually trying to give a name to something more than that. It is simply about communities and society. What I would like more and more is for the barriers to break down. I still see some schools are 90 percent South Asian, for example. Some other schools are 99 percent white. They do not mix the things in the way they should do. That may be just because of the location. When my family first went to England they only wanted to live next to other people who look like them, who think like them, so the whole of the area became British-Pakistani. You do that because it is a national thing. What happens then? As people start to make some money or enter professions and are educated, then they go into different parts of the city because they cannot afford not to. I think that is a natural growth. A lot of people, unfortunately, use the whole issue of multiculturalism to beat communities with you are not British, Irish or Turkish because you are not behaving as the British do, and I do not accept that as I had mentioned. MA: Do you see contemporary British society as people living together equally but different?NA: Yes, there is nothing wrong. In the north of London there is a very big Turkish community; in the west of London, a very big Muslim, Hindu and Sikh community; in east of London, a very large Muslim and Bangladeshi community and in the south of London, very big African and Caribbean communities. The fact that they live together does not mean they are not mixing. Because when they are working in the environment I work in where there are a large number of people including Turkish people, Muslim people, Christian people and Hindu people.MA: But are they living under the British umbrella that is made of British rules?NA: We have to apply the rules. My job is to apply British law. British Parliament has made the law and my job is to enforce it with the police. I do not apply Islamic law or Pakistani law. The only law that matters in Britain is British law. The only law that matters in Turkey is Turkish law. That has got to be the way.MA: I understand. What would you say about the recent assaults and attacks on Muslims all over Europe and in the U.S. as if any Muslim wearing black or who has a beard is a supporter of the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham [ISIS]? This kind of hate behavior is being repeated accordingly to world politics such as 9/11. And we call this Islampohobia in general. However, Islamaphobia is something ongoing within Western societies, something a part of the daily routine. I would call these kinds of attacks based on certain events as hate, not a form of phobia.NA: Quite right, I do not even like the term Islamophobia myself. I agree and think it is hate. You are hated because you are disabled, a woman, black or Muslim, whatever it is. That is how we deal with it. We do not necessarily have to go into the politics behind it. If you beat somebody up, it does not matter that you have a political reason for doing so. It is a crime and I would deal with it as a crime. If it is a hate crime, you get a longer prison sentence and the decision of the court would be more severe. Because you are targeted not because of what you did, but because of who you are. I should not be targeted because I am British-Pakistani or Muslim. If I do something wrong, by all means, target me. I always say that criminality or bad behavior begins and ends with the criminal. The whole Muslim community is not responsible for the horrible things that ISIS is doing. Such a thing happened in England about six weeks ago. A taxi driver from the north of England was beheaded. In fact, I am pretty sure that he gave me a taxi journey because I live in the same city, in Manchester. At the moment he was killed, everybody was worrying about what the reaction would be. The first memorial service for him was in a mosque. Because he was doing aid work, he was in Syria to help children, families and he went there specifically to help Muslims. He was not there as a soldier, but he was there to help us. The amount of violence and hate has been minimized because Muslims said: "This is wrong, we all accept it as wrong and we have to show committed sympathy for families." I think it is not as bad as it could have been. After 9/11 and 7/7, which was the bombing on the underground trains in England, we expected serious violence. In fact, there was some violence and additional hate, but not that much. Because it was well-managed by the police and the authorities, we stamped down on it and we stopped it. That's what happened and what continues to happen on ISIS. The idea is the criminals, these are horrible people, if anybody does something to you because of who you are, then we will deal with it. I think that is the answer.MA: Turkey is being condemned by many countries for its loose border policies and letting people go and join ISIS through its territory. There are people from France, Spain, the U.S., Canada and the U.K. coming with their passports without being stopped at the borders and without any notice from their home countries. How can Turkey stop the citizens of these countries? Why don't these countries take their own precautions before they reach Turkey?NA: There are two issues here. One is if there is intelligence then this individual is not flown to Turkey. It is dangerous. That's different – I would hope they share the intelligence with Turkish authorities and Turkish authorities would do whatever needs to be done to prevent that from happening, but I do not blame the Turkish people or Turkish authorities for the individuals who are just passing through there – they come here with German, French and British passports. If there is no information about them, you can discriminate against them. You cannot say: "You are not allowed in." For example, I am Muslim and I have a British passport. Does that mean you should not allow me in? So my point is that the individuals are responsible for what they do. It is not the Turkish government's responsibility. Additionally, you have such an enormous border. If they wanted to go to fight in Syria, they will find another way. This is an issue of individualism and this is their choice. What we have to do in Britain or other countries is, as we are doing, to educate more of these people to prevent them from going in first place.MA: ISIS beheaded some people in front of the eyes of the whole world and everybody learned about ISIS. We know ISIS is converted from another form of terrorist organization and renamed itself, but people really did not know anything about them. Now, what we see is very professional media propaganda that makes many young people go and join ISIS. Why do Muslims in Europe join ISIS? How do they come to this point individually?NA: It is very complex. I do not totally understand it myself. But we have been dealing with it for a long time, for at least 20 years. We have had young men and some young women who have been radicalized online. They see some images saying "The West is bad" or "What the West is doing to Muslim children is bad," when they are online. Many children and young men do it all day. They watch YouTube videos and the like. They are hearing some charismatic voice, some radical preacher or just somebody who is trying to persuade or brainwash them.MA: But they are living in the West, not in the Middle East? You may easily experience hate in the streets without being affected by a preacher to brainwashing them.NA: Let's put it like this: If somebody hates me, I do not necessarily want to hit them back. If I can, I would try to educate them. These are weak people. Weak in the brain, weak minded, easily manipulated, their education is poor in the sense of being focused on the thought of "Muslims as victims." We should keep talking and explain, talking online and talking in schools.Meryem Atlas: So you mean joining ISIS is an individual responsibility or irresponsible behavior of the individuals that puts the burden on their shoulders? Society, leaders, hate speech, media does not affect it?Nazir Afzal: They have. Whoever creates the language has, of course. What I mean is in the U.K., hate language is a crime. If somebody comes up to me and says: "You Muslims are horrible," and I report that to the police, the police will take it seriously. They will deal with it and that person will be arrested or prosecuted. So you have to tackle the language because, ultimately, it can become a big abuse. But it is very small in number. For example, when my father and mother went to England for the first time 50 years ago there was more racism. It was not because of Islam, it was because one was black or white. It was this kind of racism and it was always overt, it was always in your face. There were always people coming up to me and using this kind of language. So it was really bad in those days. My father used to say to me: "Get used to it, it is we who are just visiting here."Meryem Atlas: Hate speech is one think, how do you see the burka ban?Nazir Afzal: As you know, there is a burka ban in France and that creates problems for the Muslim community. I would say, that's their law, their decision and they are enforcing their law. However, in the U.K., we have not made this decision. We think it's an expression of oneself. So if you want to wear a scarf over your face, it is a matter for you. The debate in Britain is about how it is impacting education. For example, a school child generally looks at the teacher and looks for expressions from the teacher. Do you like what I am doing? If the teacher wears something so you can't see their expressions, it is going to have an impact on education. This is just a discussion. But we have no plans in the U.K. to make a criminal offence against the burka, and we will certainly stamp down on people using this as an excuse for Muslim hate.Meryem Atlas: Thank you very much indeed.